tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post4899785654674404198..comments2023-05-09T03:41:43.325-07:00Comments on shenpa warrior: Joseph Smith and Losing Faith Over Historyadamfhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06177880599252455507noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-33013336161951805642009-12-25T17:06:09.184-08:002009-12-25T17:06:09.184-08:00NOTE - Please go to the new blog URL to leave a co...<b>NOTE</b> - Please go to the new blog URL to leave a comment on this post! :) Thanks!<br /><br />http://shenpawarrior.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/joseph-smith-and-losing-faith-over-history/adamfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06177880599252455507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-8066958199958601502009-12-17T13:33:35.222-08:002009-12-17T13:33:35.222-08:00Thanks for the comment Molly. I've never under...Thanks for the comment Molly. I've never understood this "prophetic infallibility" idea. You REALLY have to bury your head in the sand, REALLY deep, to have the view that prophets have always agreed with each other, or have never taught things that weren't true or conflicted... Gosh, the same thing applies to the Bible even.adamfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06177880599252455507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-78798840479553445222009-12-14T10:23:42.116-08:002009-12-14T10:23:42.116-08:00If I could have heard this kind of earnest engagem...If I could have heard this kind of earnest engagement and sincere honesty when I was going through my crisis of faith, I might have stuck around longer. As it is, unfortunately I believe the leadership and general membership to be too dogmatic at this point in time to embrace this kind of attitude. It will be interesting to see what kind of shift in thinking there is now that a generation reared on the Internet is beginning to come of age. I think they will be better equipped to reject the notion of prophetic infallibility and not see that as an irreparable flaw in Mormonism's claims.Mollyhttp://mollymuses.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-9458807744140072712008-12-03T13:22:00.000-08:002008-12-03T13:22:00.000-08:00Anon.- for me it isn't an all or nothing deal. I ...Anon.- for me it isn't an all or nothing deal. I believe in the plan of salvation, I believe that families can be forever, I also believe that humans are imperfect, and that God allows us to be imperfect so that we can grow and learn. It would be silly (for me) to throw out all the things I know in my heart just because a prophet was human. <BR/><BR/>Also, I don't think there's anything vain about mental gymnastics. If we don't do a little stretching, we'll never figure out what we really believe will we?Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02784160644947020521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-24689554711430154382008-12-02T13:58:00.000-08:002008-12-02T13:58:00.000-08:00Thanks for stopping by, anonymous. I can't speak f...Thanks for stopping by, anonymous. I can't speak for others, but personally I no longer attempt "mental gymnastics" or "rationalization." Perhaps not completely unlike your experience, it just does not work for me.<BR/><BR/>As for being "true" or "not true" I can see your point (and that of the leaders of the church), but to me that issue is not nearly as important to me as it used to be.<BR/><BR/>For me, there are things in the church (as Hugh Nibley even said) that are appalling. There are a lot of things that are mildly disturbing. Take that, and add to it all the wonderful experiences (which are subjective, obviously) I have had, as well as my core beliefs (that have been examined ad nauseam) that give so much meaning and inspiration to my life, and you have a nice mix that cannot be reconciled, rationalized, or mentally gymnasticized (that's probably not a word). It is what it is, and I sit with it all. I think some amount of ambivalence is a part of existence.adamfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06177880599252455507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-23791349651028389002008-12-02T13:21:00.000-08:002008-12-02T13:21:00.000-08:00The Bushman article parallels a lot of the experie...The Bushman article parallels a lot of the experiences and thoughts I have had over the past several years. Thanks for posting it.<BR/><BR/>I found most of the comments, however, to be vain attempts at rationalization and mental gymnastics.<BR/><BR/>The Mormon Church is not like a political party where you can choose to believe many or most of the party's positions while rejecting some of the others. It's either true or it isn't. Mormon leaders themselves have said this.<BR/><BR/>I remember when I was young and wondered why no one had found a single sword, breastplate, shield or helmet in the New World despite the fact that there must have been millions of them according to the BOM. I just assumed that someone would find them some day.<BR/><BR/>However, over time, people have found more reasons NOT to believe the BOM than to believe it.<BR/><BR/>There are better uses for your time and money.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-58475261155052673502008-09-24T08:14:00.000-07:002008-09-24T08:14:00.000-07:00#15 - "They must have light, do they not, in order...#15 - "They must have light, do they not, in order to sin against it?"<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I wonder if many members in the church don't have or never received "the light." They may have been baptized, but that does not necessarily equate with knowing anything.<BR/><BR/>I also don't think we have always had it right, and obviously we still don't have it all right, or else there would be no need for further growth, evolution, or revelation regarding our doctrines. That being said, damning unbaptized children to hell is completely inane. Perhaps not as crazy, but still inane, is taking the opportunity to hold the priesthood away from African Americans <I>after</I> Joseph Smith had allowed it.<BR/><BR/>I like faiths that grow and discard the stuff like infant baptism being necessary. I need to check, but I don't think the Catholic Church believes unbaptized infants are damned anymore.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I wonder what we will think of this time in 50 years. What do we believe now that with some more hindsight will look ridiculous. Or do we think we pretty much have it down well now?adamfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06177880599252455507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-66332685751268592412008-09-19T19:59:00.000-07:002008-09-19T19:59:00.000-07:00this was a very helpful essay by bushman... thank...this was a very helpful essay by bushman... thank you for posting it.galen dara https://www.blogger.com/profile/02987352194018060353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-12807919717665915772008-09-19T19:19:00.000-07:002008-09-19T19:19:00.000-07:00The MTC speakers were wrong, you and I know that. ...The MTC speakers were wrong, you and I know that. Yes, we do agree as it is a perfect plan from a perfect being with a perfect love for his children. Ignorance and situation will not preclude anyone unless they exercise their agency and make choices that ultimately will damn them. They must have light, do they not, in order to sin against it? Calvin, Luther, any Pope, Wycliffe, Zwingli, none of them knew or had it right. No one else today does either, not even his Holiness the Dalai Lama, though he and other Buddhist schools teach many Mormon doctrines.<BR/><BR/>CP and LG are innocent and who on God's earth would doom them to purgatory, a burial outside the consecrated cemetery wall, suggest only 144,000 of them would be saved, or some percentage are saved and some are damned according to His grace or will? <BR/> <BR/>Yes, we have it all, and it is a Perfect Plan of Happiness. I am profoundly grateful for that understanding.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07112174152213184594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-65497581186947663552008-09-19T09:05:00.000-07:002008-09-19T09:05:00.000-07:00Maybe few do, I don't know. I believe "whosoever r...Maybe few do, I don't know. I believe "whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church." I believe God is more inclusive than just accepting those in the CoJCoLDS, that he does not cast out people because they don't happen to believe in him or in a particular faith. I believe everyone will end up exactly where they want to be.<BR/><BR/>In the MTC some of the speakers got us all riled up with stuff like "you may be this person's only chance to receive the gospel" - I can see the point of saying motivating lies like that, but it nearly gave me an anxiety disorder at the time, and I don't believe it at all anymore. God is not cruel, I'm sure we agree. I believe it is a perfect plan, and that plan includes everyone who wants it now or later, regardless of current theology. So if by "ignorance or situation" you include people of other (or lack thereof) faiths, personalities, orientations etc. then I completely agree.adamfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06177880599252455507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-721245133418316352008-09-18T17:45:00.000-07:002008-09-18T17:45:00.000-07:00Can I say I believe it is the only true church and...Can I say I believe it is the only true church and salvation cometh to no man except he enter into the strait gate, and few there be that find it... Maybe few really want it. What is it that drives our culture, our government, our sports or business icons? Isn't it greed and love of money and power? Even among the Saints, terrestrial pursuits keep them from being where they should and doing what they ought.<BR/><BR/>There truly is a plan of happiness for everyone who seeks it or wants it and no one need be left out or kept from the feast because of ignorance or situation. <BR/><BR/>It is a perfect plan and I am content and happy with it.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07112174152213184594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-91115844375385317532008-09-18T13:42:00.000-07:002008-09-18T13:42:00.000-07:00Adam - I think dealing with doubt and history is p...Adam - <BR/>I think dealing with doubt and history is part of our generation's journey. And not because we're different from our parents per se (sp?), but because of the tools satan now has at his disposal; ie the internet. This was not something any previous generation had to face, and although the true history of the early saints has been more of less accessible for many years, our age/generation is truly unique with our accute sense of controversy, and a hyper reactiveness to anything and everything political or religious (I'm including myself here). Our journey is what it is, but the key point is that, while the overall themes of doubt may be from the same source, each of us have a unique experience to go through. Just as the pioneers had tribulations of a physical nature, we have tribulations of doubt brought on by the immensity of information available, and the aforementioned contemporary mindsets.McFamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11912004338822525810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-62824763065738261222008-09-18T11:16:00.000-07:002008-09-18T11:16:00.000-07:00McFam - I agree with the emphasis on “our own pers...<B>McFam</B> - I agree with the emphasis on “our own personal journey to find the Savior” Are you suggesting that dealing with doubt and history is part of the journey? I had not thought of it in that way before, but I like it. Like Cathleen, I think it is easier for those who can just get on the train without having to face anything controversial. Kinda reminds me of the Matrix, with those who wanted to remain plugged in and happy, or those who want to know the truth and yet have to suffer some measure for it.<BR/><BR/><B>allie</B> - I said I don’t have a “testimony” that it is the only true church. Beliefs regarding the issue don’t matter as much to me, because I do believe that God will lead everyone who desires down the right path for them, even if that path is not Mormonism.adamfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06177880599252455507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-67709320704559204672008-09-18T11:02:00.000-07:002008-09-18T11:02:00.000-07:00Adam- when you say that you don't believe it's the...Adam- when you say that you don't believe it's the "only true church", do you really mean only "true" church, or do you mean true as in the only church with the complete fulness of the gospel? I think there's a difference.<BR/><BR/>I kind of think that God views us along the lines of what we do with what we're given- whether that's the religion we belong to or the economic circumstances we live in. If that makes sense. In the sense of the "complete fullness of the gospel", I don't think any other church has it, but I don't think that's the same thing as our church being the only "true" one.Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02784160644947020521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-51749048814720762652008-09-18T10:13:00.000-07:002008-09-18T10:13:00.000-07:00My short answer (since you've read my longer answe...My short answer (since you've read my longer answer over on Mormon Matters) is that almost every "problem" or "issue" I've ever encountered can be resolved simply by changing the organic, fundamental assumptions that make these things appear to be problems and issues. In short, I just don't care much about the messy details, especially the ones that are open to interpretation. <BR/><BR/>Also, I am stoked about much of the DNA research being done recently (and much of the other BofM-related study), since I believe it validates the actual book and corrects long-held misconceptions about it. I believe when you focus narrowly on what the book itself says (as opposed to what others, including former - and current - leaders *assume(d)* it says), the newest discoveries actually strengthen the claim that it is inspired.Papa Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06704974609266088416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-74174663045884309212008-09-18T10:07:00.000-07:002008-09-18T10:07:00.000-07:00I appreciate your posting this information. I can ...I appreciate your posting this information. I can so relate to this. My parents were converts to the church when I was 6 years old. I was essentially raised in the church by zealots. My parents really took all teachings to heart and were "super converts". I grew up never questioning anything and with a great love for Joseph Smith.<BR/>My freshman year at BYU changed all that. I had a church history class that challenged all I had been taught my whole life. I was so shook up and felt like I had been deceived for all those years. I was really in a strange place and felt so alone with my new feelings. It wasn't okay to question or talk badly about church teachings. I didn't leave the church, but I was less active than before. I also took a few years to try out some of the things that I had always stayed away from.<BR/>I wanted my testimony back, but I didn't know how to reconcile my new knowledge with church teachings. I eventually put aside my feelings about Joseph Smith (basically I chose not to deal with them) and tried to move forward with the rest of the doctrine. Obviously, you can't just ignore Joseph and base your testimony on everything else. It has been a 20 year process. It helped when I spoke to my father about this a few years after the experience and found that he felt the same way. He was still a strong active church member. He also surmised that Joseph was killed because of leading people astray (with polygamy and such). For a longtime I wished I had never taken that class and could still be blissfully ignorant. I do believe now that my testimony is much stronger, as McFam said "having survived the refiners fire". <BR/>I have rarely mentioned this experience and my subsequent feelings to anyone. I do however make a point to share the negative with the positive as I teach my children the gospel. I want them to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly from me. I teach them to question and search out the issues for themselves. Good idea, I don't know. My oldest (a college freshman) is not currently active. I see all these "blindly doing" youth and I just can't be part of it. Though I sure wish he was doing as he had been taught, I have hope that he'll desire to gain a testimony of his own someday.Cathleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01213058281175239305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-75000871413356776632008-09-18T07:52:00.000-07:002008-09-18T07:52:00.000-07:00I've enjoyed reading everyone else's comments...Fi...I've enjoyed reading everyone else's comments...<BR/>First and foremost, I think it's obvious that there is a major gap between how the church was/is viewed by our parents and grandparents, and how the church is viewed by us (the younger generation!). By viewed, I mean the action of viewing... how we choose to see things, and the kinds of questions we choose to ask. In a conversation with my mom a few months ago, she told me that the church experience for her in her younger testimony-finding years was like taking a train ride. The train ride of the gospel. It was a ride that your parents bought your ticket for, and you unquestioningly and semi-blindly took the ticket and got on the train. Little or no questioning along the way... the train does all the work.. you get the idea.<BR/>This is in stark contrast to what is clearly evident from the post and comments here; a new way of looking at the gospel is clearly emerging, and it's not a bad thing. In my opinion, going through doubt, and coming out the other side with your faith still in tact, though quite changed it may be, is the most pure kind of conversion there is. A real refiners fire. Our testimony is strengthened and we have a REAL resolve to follow the church and the brethren. While the train ride has given generations before us unfaltering obedience and belief as hallmarks of their character, our "hard march" or "difficult road" will surely give us something more. I belive this is the heart of the many comments about our "chosen" generation. <BR/>In my opinion, the true essence of life lies in our own personal journey to find the Savior. We each must encounter, and consequently reconcile with our faith, those things that try us the most. And sometimes, that's just damn hard!McFamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11912004338822525810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-42765601103526897232008-09-18T07:13:00.000-07:002008-09-18T07:13:00.000-07:00allie – I have gone through some of the steps myse...<B>allie</B> – I have gone through some of the steps myself. In fact, I have felt a lot like his friend in the article in the sense that I don’t consider inspiration etc. to be limited to Mormonism, and I don’t have a testimony that it is the “only” true church. <BR/><BR/>I used to have a certain amount of anxiety about friends and whether they would join the church, but in the last few years I have developed a different view of God, and believe that he is not going to damn people based on their theological opinions. Now that I’m not concerned for the salvation of my friends, I’ve actually found that I’m much more comfortable sharing what I believe, and probably do more “missionary work.”<BR/><BR/><B>Steve #2</B> - Agreed, we are often quick to be defensive. I think much of it has to do with anxiety, and the fact that doubt is somehow seen as a sin. As for the “straw that breaks the camel’s back,” I think is seems like an emotional reaction to the “loose ends” building up. Many of us, yourself included apparently, weigh the good and the bad in the church and for some the negative side becomes too much, while many members just ignore the bad. Throw on top of that having your concerns met with “ignore it” and you have a good recipe for leaving. Thanks for your comment on this! Your perspective is much appreciated.<BR/><BR/><B>Cameron</B> - <I>“I tend to take critics' "history" with just as much doubt.”</I> - That’s why I am loving this seemingly new era of history-writing in the church with active, believing members writing history and not skipping the uncomfortable details (other than Bushman, there’s also the McKay book by Prince and Wright, and the new Mountain Meadows book, for example).<BR/><BR/><B>Happy</B> - <I>“He has promised that He will not let His prophet lead us astray.”</I> - The problem that many have with this idea is that it was a prophet who said it, and what it means exactly. I (and I’m assuming you do to) interpret it as the general direction of the church rather than individual actions by any church leader, but that may just be my “apologetic” side coming out. <BR/><BR/>My testimony has been based on feelings too, of course, and I have paid careful attention to when I “feel” the feelings of the spirit as I have believed them to be. I would say rather than learning of any truth, the biggest influence these feelings have been in my life are those of peace given to me in a few troubling times.adamfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06177880599252455507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-13451599027677398012008-09-18T06:50:00.000-07:002008-09-18T06:50:00.000-07:00Cameron, I'm not saying people that stick it out s...Cameron, I'm not saying people that stick it out shouldn't be admirable, but "blind faith" is just as dangerous as attacks on the church or any faith. Case in point, the Taliban and other radical religious types on all sides. <BR/><BR/>I think the author and Adam make great points that the church really needs to embrace the lessons learned from previous "mistakes" and be open. The Catholic church, for instance, has done similar things from it's anti-semitism during WW2 and the churches responsbile for the Salem witch trials.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16318056886420896448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-83974711434026726662008-09-17T14:33:00.000-07:002008-09-17T14:33:00.000-07:00He’s dead on with his assessments. I imagine ther...He’s dead on with his assessments. I imagine there are many that have yet to uncover anything negative facts and findings and so they go about in their “perfect bliss”. Those of us who have been exposed to unpleasantries have to deal with the internal struggles pointed out in this post. When it comes down to it, and this essentially supports some of my thoughts about man’s wisdom vs. God’s wisdom, I have to let the intellectual stuff go, go back to the basics and depend on what feels right.<BR/><BR/>My testimony has been entirely based on feelings from the beginning. The doctrine supports intellectually what the Spirit testifies through feelings. I haven’t found anything else yet that makes more sense (not that I’m looking). But at the same time I think it is important that I keep an open mind. The church may be true, but I never heard any declarations stating that we have all the answers. Who knows when I might find yet another missing piece to the great puzzle of life…<BR/><BR/>One last thought, we shouldn’t forget that Peter denied Christ thrice. God is carrying out His perfect plan with imperfect people. But He has promised that He will not let His prophet lead us astray.<BR/><BR/>I guess this is where that FAITH part comes into play.Happy The Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16367489409709616382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-79621812232030140432008-09-17T12:06:00.000-07:002008-09-17T12:06:00.000-07:00I like how Bushman talks about members that do kno...I like how Bushman talks about members that <I>do</I> know all the "skeletons" and remain faithful. It's an example to be learned from.<BR/><BR/>I also think that the reason many members respond in the way described (it must be a lie, don't read anything outside the church, etc) is because over the years there has been so much junk written and said about the Church that any criticism is easily dismissed as bunk. In a way, it's the inverse of how critics behave - critics take a doubtful eye at anything good or miraculous in our history, while I tend to take critics' "history" with just as much doubt.<BR/><BR/>I am reminded of a recent fireside where it was advised that as we increase our study in secular areas, we should proportionately increase our time spent studying the scriptures.Cameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06016275707476655364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-3676914567790470172008-09-17T11:06:00.000-07:002008-09-17T11:06:00.000-07:00As a former convert, I don't think I could have wr...As a former convert, I don't think I could have written a better summation of my thoughts and feelings. I did my homework while speaking with the missionaries, thus I knew some of the stuff and was willing to overlook some clear historical inaccuracies. However, the more I learned, both IN and out of church, the more all these loose ends continued to build. At some point, the proverbial "straw that breaks the camel's back" happens and it seems silly to believe anything you hear w/o further investigation to the facts.<BR/>Now granted, I've never been a literal interpretor of the Bible and consider it to be the jist of what was meant and needed to be put forth by the Christian church; but the Mormon Church troubled me in what I think is a "cult of personality" around JS. It was/is so strong that any questioning of JS, JS history, or any of the early church problems, such as with Brigham Young and Utah quickly were met as "lies", even when they were factually accurate, or anti-Mormon rants and my concerns sometimes were met with "go talk to the missionaries", "pray about it" or "ignore what you read outside of church". That coupled with some basic disagreements I had with church doctrine (I'm no expert, just my interpretations and understandings) with some hypocracies and un-Christian/Christ like things I saw go on in the Church made me realize that the Church was no longer where God wanted me to be. <BR/>W/o going on here too long, I always felt that Morms (my slang) are always too quick to be defensive and too afraid of any quivering of self-doubt to address facts and reality sometimes; which only further makes it hard to find support or answers when individuals, especially converts, are only trying to simply learn more.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16318056886420896448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-698549028105671572.post-37657157554377058672008-09-17T10:30:00.000-07:002008-09-17T10:30:00.000-07:00I think that either way you're going to lose some ...I think that either way you're going to lose some people. Perhaps people that are looking for a reason to leave anyway. <BR/><BR/>I was reading the steps that Bushman said people go through when they are dealing with concerns over things in the church, and I think I've gone through it a little bit myself. Not because of Joseph Smith- I never had a difficult time accepting that he wasn't perfect. His faults were relieving to me- and I think have helped me deal with issues with more recent prophets. <BR/><BR/>I think we ought to embrace our history, good or bad. We shouldn't need to hide the truth, we should strive to understand it and learn from it.Alicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02784160644947020521noreply@blogger.com